I'd love to hear views on this

[morgaina]

This is a subject that has occasionally come up on the SCA potters list. I'd like to hear what people in other crafts, and dear GWEN of course, thinks.
Many examples of Western pottery show poorly made work. Heavy bases, uneven walls, obviously off center when the surface design looks like it was intended to be symetrical, visually weak forms. Handles that were squeezed and visually don't work with the form, etc.
First semester student work.

So, a lot of SCA period pottery pieces are considered by us moderns to be purely utilitarian, never left the kitchen, broke a lot, cheap 'n easy to replace.
Poorly crafted.

Folks, I cannot do poorly crafted. I have to do the highest quality I am capeable of doing.

I suppose I could just do Middle Eastern and Chinese work, or late period. But I love trying different things.

Many of you do Medieval crafts that, even though the craftsmen used simple tools, way outshine the work people do nowdays. Does anyone else face reproducing Medieval poorly made work? And if you don't would you?

Comments

[khalja.livejournal.com]

Excellent question. You see the same poor quality workmanship in extant beads and garments too.

I am not duplicating medieval objects. I am making similar objects using similar methods, techniques and even tools, but with my own level of craftsmanship. All medieval craftspersons were not created equal and it is not wise to assume that the work that survived did so anyway other than accidentally. ;)

I say, do what you do in the manner that you need to do it and be happy as an artist.

[copper-oxide.livejournal.com]

Thanks very much for your reply. I like that comment.
For the beads and garments, is poor quality obvious in finds common, or just a few?

[khalja.livejournal.com]

It's obvious. If you've taught people new to either craft, it's much like that.

[mrq-laurellen.livejournal.com]

I look at it this way;

Most of what we see is from midden piles, dumps, has been left in the earth for whatever reason, dug up, subject to the elements, etc. And it's a fact that 90% of all cultural artifacts are going to be utilitarian. But I don't thing that means that I necessarily have to embroider or sew like a two year old. I strive to be the best craftsman possible because I want to emmulate that other 10%. I want to emmulate the best that the period has to offer.

I say be the best you can be, and as you are using period techniques, and thinking in the period aesthetic, then all is good... especially your pottery.

Fie on crap!

[copper-oxide.livejournal.com]

This is similar to what I wrote on the Potters list. Only I didn't write as eloquently.
"Fie on Crap", could be a good signiture as well as belief system.

[ornerie.livejournal.com]

Fie on Crap indeed!!! what a great battle cry!

[copper-oxide.livejournal.com]

I wonder if Laurellen would consider putting it on the new A&S web page as a motto? ;-)

[gwen-the-potter.livejournal.com]

My stuff is not as decorative as Morgaine's work (I never seem to find the time to carve and put decoration on pieces), so my stuff looks much more utilitarian. However, I also try to do the best that I can with my purely functional stuff. Most of what has been found is throw-aways, so it would not necessarily be the best. But there had to be a master among all of that apprentice work, and if you take the age, wear, mistreatment by the elements into consideration, a lot of the work was at one time very beautiful. I look at my box o' shards that I got from Mark Gaukler, and bits and pieces are very finished, and some are very crude. There's a bit of everything.

I can't make myself sell a piece that I think is poor quality. I'll give them away, or use them in fountains, or mosaics, or landfill. (The scribal people love the little jars I give them, the ones that develop stress cracks that don't go all the way through.) I don't think that things have changed much, there were bound to be master potters back then that produced fine works, not just all crap work.

[copper-oxide.livejournal.com]

I think we just have different styles. I probably do a lot of carving because my second love is drawing, so it's the best of both worlds.
One of the shard you gave me (or I got from him ?????) is a part of a handle that was pulled and attached to the neck of a jug. It's beautifully made, graceful and strong, many potters modernly couldn't do that well.

[freewaydiva.livejournal.com]

Ditto what they all said, more or less.

I try to please myself; I don't necessarily strive for "perfection," and don't beat myself up when I don't achieve it...much...anymore...

We do, however, have a modern eye that is accustomed to seeing manufactured perfection. I rather enjoy seeing things that are a little off of that mark. It reminds me that there was a human involved in the process.

[copper-oxide.livejournal.com]

Machine made has no attraction for me either.
The thought of intentionally poor craftsmanship was what was causing my teeth to grind. Kind of like a phd talking kids street slang to convince them he's a pal. Only worse in a way. Pottery is (virtually) forever.

[ornerie.livejournal.com]

I've heard artists in the sca say "rough is more period" and personally I dont buy it.

1. anal retentive is as anal retentive does ;). I cant believe a fuss pot like me wouldnt try to make it PERFECT whether in 1466 or now.

2. you use the good stuff. the crap you leave in the back of the cupboard to be dug up 500 years later entire (because it was never used). meanwhile the good stuff is used until it breaks.

Look on the shelves of goodwill and you'll see what I mean ;)


3. I'm sure there was some shoddy workmanship in the middle ages but if you were a master of your craft, you were expected to maintain a certain standard. Bakers who baked short loaves were drug around town with the short loaf tied around their neck.

now, I could buy the masters work or I could try and either knock something out myself with expected results ;) or I could afford the journeymans or apprentices practice pieces.

we all know that to become a master takes years of practice. what happens to all those practice pieces? in some cases they're melted down to recover the materials but in other cases, I bet they were fired/finished for lower end markets.

the midden digs in Brugges had some amazing pottery...high end fancy face jugs. and next to it, a funny little blobby beast. I'm betting it was Jr, who had to go to the workshop with dad so dad tosses him a lump of clay to keep him amused. he makes a monster and dad fires it...

[copper-oxide.livejournal.com]

Good points.
I consider it bloody arrogant to consider past craftsmen less skilled, talented, or that they cared less about doing the best they were capeable of, than we do today.

[ornerie.livejournal.com]

it is rather egotistical, isnt it?

we're sooo much more advanced, therefor, we must be better.

also "primitive" techniques must be cruder (the term "primitive" cracks me up. do they ahve any idea how many steps are involved in say creating a piece of jewelry when you dont have a gas torch? which is primitive?)

hmph. I could only dream of attaining the skill level of some of my medieval counterparts. of course, by my age they would have been doing it for 40 years, full time while I only get to dabble on the weekends and didnt start till I was 20....

[copper-oxide.livejournal.com]

And, rather than spending so much of our time on trial and error a Master would give more direction, pitfalls to avoid, etc. so more time could be spent improving expertise. That is after the rushes were changed, water was hauled, pointy things were sharpened, etc.

[gattagrigia.livejournal.com]

When you look at examples of what today we call 'calligraphy', you see a wide variety of hands and expertise. I've always liked to include some really sloppy examples in classes when I teach, just to let people know that making letter forms look like they were printed, wasn't necessarily the medieval goal. Not that a scribe would be deliberately messy, but that writing was a specialized task needed to complete a goal, and getting the goal accomplished was more important than being precise.

Personally, I think that the vast majority working scribes in period were more interested in getting a contract written or accurately copying a volume of Jerome or taking dictation, than in making something beautiful. Of course, there are those master artists who did exquisite work, but they are not common; on the other hand, their work is more likely to be treasured.

[copper-oxide.livejournal.com]

There was so much of both calligraphy and pottery done, that it is reasonable to assume there were multi levels of mastery from the beginners up.

[gargoyal3.livejournal.com]

Hi, getting into this late :)

I am coming a little from the other end, laugh. I am a functional potter, and I produce a LOT of what I consider crap. Now, what I consider crap is still functional. But it's frequently crooked, or a little uneven, the handle isn't in proportion to the mug, the lip is too fat, the foot the wrong size, etc.


I learned in college a theory of throwing that was called in our studio production pottery. The idea was that even at a master level, not every pot is good. Coming off the wheel, about 10 percent were really, really nice. Since ceramics is so much of a process, those pots then had to survive the vagaries of two firings, glazing, and not getting chipped or busted in transport. So, if you threw 100 pots, your LIKELYHOOD of getting a master level pot at the end, pretty okay. If you threw 10 pots, not so much.

I spent some time looking at a medieval ceramics, and medieval potters. They had some serious process issues. So, I'm betting thier percentages were even lower.

Now, as a "Master" (snort) potter, if I make 100 mugs (which, technically, I COULD do in one sitting, if I were in practice), how many will really rock? Not many. So, I end up with 5 really awsome mugs that I either hoard, or give to someone real important, or sell for a lot of money (giggle). What do I do with the other 95? Well, they are perfectly medieval. They are perfectly functional. They are also crap. Do the same thing the medieval potters did, put them in a basket and sell the dang things by the bushel! They get broken in fairly short order, but do I care? NOPE. I have 5 extra cool mugs! Dude!

This is all kind of a zen thing :) It involves letting GO. Not being invested so heavily in every item that leaves your wheel. Accepting that a huge percentage is going into that basket of crap. I started throwing 100% better when I did this, but you milage may vary :) There was a wide assortment of production and non-production serious potters in that studio, and both made amazing work.
For me, it brings me great joy, knowing that any one that comes off the wheel may be the most beutiful thing I ever made, but not having to TRY so hard. Knowing that even if it is crooked, that's no reflection on my expertize, but rather something that someone will love and only pay me $3 for :) Individual pots are not my emotional "baby" as they leave my wheel. I don't have to worry endlessly that a bit of kiln wash will ruin it. What comes out of the kiln, comes out of the kiln, and most of it will shortly meet the crap-basket, laugh.

I am really comfortable with how I work, and I find no evidence that it is a non-medieval form of thought :)

[copper-oxide.livejournal.com]

I'm sure it's a Medieval thought. One of the things we were discussion is the wide range of abilities and philosopies of craft, reasonably, must have abounded then as now.

I've known quite a few masterful potters. My neighbor, who I mentioned earlier, would have allmost 100% of 100 come out beautifully. That's how he keeps his head above water financially and he approaches it quite methodically. Quite often art professors have never actually made a living at their work. Your's may have been one that did, which is a good thing.

I would certainly have most of my 100 come out well, assuming the kiln doesn't malfunction. As for trying too hard, most of the hard analytical stuff comes after the pot is complete.

If I believe any of my pots are crap, they get the hammer. They don't leave the studio. Someone with more expertise than I have may doubt my judgement of the crapness of my individual pots ;-) , but my stuff has to fit *my* standards, no one elses.

[gargoyal3.livejournal.com]

*laugh*

Okay, for me, this is back to the zen thing. All pots are crap, some are just FABULOUS crap, laugh. In ten years, I may think that the best one I made now is not worth keeping. Right now, though, the crappy ones are useful medieval objects that people in the SCA can use everyday. Oh, the horror, not increasing the general medeivalness of our surroundings! giggle...

[copper-oxide.livejournal.com]

Everyone has to believe in something.
I believe I'll have a drink ;-)